Interview: Lisa & Brad Gullickson of ‘Comic Book Couples Counseling”
Lisa and Brad Gullickson, the married duo perhaps best known as the hosts of the Comic Book Couples Counseling podcast, are having quite a moment. Not only have they been putting out episode after episode of top-notch content featuring some of the biggest creators in comics, but they will also be joining the ranks of creators with a story in Pots and Panels, a new comic anthology that launches on Kickstarter tomorrow (October 8th), and they’ll be hosting this year’s Harvey Awards at New York Comic Con.
I’ve been a huge fan of their work over the years, so I was stoked to get a chance to chat with them about some of their exciting new projects and their thoughts on the comic book industry. Check out our conversation below!
You can listen to Comic Book Couples Counseling on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Google, follow them on Twitter or Instagram, and support their hard work via their Patreon.
Patrick Savoia, Derby Comics: First of all, thank you both so much for joining me for a chat today! Before we get into all the fun stuff you two are up to, can you share a little bit about Comic Book Couples Counseling podcast and how you got started in comics?
Brad Gullickson: Before there ever was Comic Book Couples Counseling, there was the In The Mouth of Dorkness podcast which started as a blog in 2011. Oh my God, why am I going back so far [laughs]?
I did the blog with my buddy Matt and then that evolved into the podcast that we did with our buddies Darren and Brian, and then Lisa joined. Suddenly you have this podcast with a bunch of people on it. It was movie themed and we were getting some really great interviews. We were having a great time doing that podcast, but we also felt like there was opportunity to do other things. We had a desire to have our own little project and I think I expressed that at some point. Lisa came up with the name of Comic Book Couples Counseling and I was resistant to that at first because I'm not a self-help person. I've never gone to therapy, even though I definitely should. But I couldn't deny how good a title that was. After about a year of discussing Comic Book Couples Counseling, we finally recorded our first episode.
Lisa Gullickson: The reason I wanted to do something in the vein of Comic Book Couples Counseling is I found that a lot of content creators, when it comes to comics, we're not having the conversations that I really wanted to have. I love to talk about theme and I love digesting the story, but now I want to talk about how it relates to me and how that story can influence my life. I’m a self-help obsessive. I love reading self-help columns. I love self-help books. And at that time, there was a podcast that would take a self-help book, live by it for a week or two, and then reflect on how that book helped them. I wanted to bring that kind of energy to Comic Book Couples Counseling and that's what we came up with as our initial idea - apply a self-help book to a comic book couple and then to ourselves. It's easier to talk about the hard things in life when you're talking about, you know, the Silver Surfer and Dawn Greenwood than it is to talk about Brad and Lisa. So that's where we came from and we're still really enjoying it. We're having a great time with it five years on!
Patrick, Derby Comics: I love that. I got back into comic books with Jonathan Hickman’s Krakoan Era and it was because of anxiety. I was starting to go to therapy and I just needed an escape from everything. And then you compound that with COVIDand the 2020 election, and it was the perfect storm for anxiety. But reading X-Men became another form of therapy for myself because I grew up with comic books and superheroes. I really want people to connect with whatever character that they can see their own story in. So hearing you talk about how this all started is one of the coolest stories and that’s what drew me into your show instantly.
Lisa Gullickson: That's so kind! And I think it's so important. I do think that there are creators and people in the comic book space that are afraid to talk about themselves and afraid to talk about their vulnerability. But the truth is, like, we're all reading the same books. Right? So especially when we're following, you know, personalities, we want to know about you just as much as we want to know about your thoughts on X-Men or whatever.
Patrick, Derby Comics: Totally. As two people who have interviewed quite a number of creators yourselves, you can now officially say you've joined the ranks of comic book creators with your work on Pots and Panels! Without getting too spoilery, what is your story about?
Brad Gullickson: It's funny because our story is 7 pages long and trying not to spoil 7 pages is the most difficult task imaginable. The story itself is called "The Vegetable” and it's illustrated by Gerald von Stoddard. And Gerald has a very horror aesthetic. If you take a look at his work on Immortal Coil, which I would highly recommend, you can see that he can create some really gnarly imagery. And "The Vegetable” does require some gnarly imagery, although I would say ultimately it is a very sweet story. It’s a memoir told from Lisa's perspective about a phobia that I have, which is related to a vegetable, and it is a very real phobia that I still struggle with to this day. I’ve gotten better regarding it because now I've had to see it depicted in comics, but you know, this is why I should go to therapy. [laughing]
But [the story] is about Lisa encountering my phobia early on in our dating life and me encountering an anxiety disorder that she has, and together we're able to see each other in our own anxieties. Basically, our own fears.
Lisa Gullickson: Yeah, like the idea of sharing that part of ourselves that we were ashamed of helped actually get us closer.
Brad Gullickson: This was 17 years ago, which is nuts to say because it feels like yesterday, but when you're initially dating, you're trying to look your best. You're actually performing. You're lying constantly [laughing]. Like, you know, you want to get with this. But what you discover early on, hopefully, is that communication is the key to any good relationship. And you really need to reveal as much of yourself as soon as possible to really understand if you're compatible.
Lisa Gullickson: When they came to us and asked if we would you like to contribute to an anthology that's food related, I jumped at the opportunity. I love food related comics. I collect food related comics. I think they're my two favorite things I love. I love eating and I love comics. So, Brad and I started going back and forth about what would our food comic be about? I was like, well, you know you would hate to write it, but it should totally be your phobia. And he responded, “oh no. You are correct.” It was really vulnerable for Brad to be able to go there and I really respect him for doing it because I think that people will relate.
Brad Gullickson: What ended up selling the idea is that my parents believe that my food related phobia is tied to an event that happened when I was a toddler or almost still an infant. I don't remember it, but they they've told me this story a lot, and it's a violent moment. An act of violence is put upon me.
Lisa Gullickson: That makes it weird [laughs]. An accident happened that was violent. It sounds like your parents beat you with a cucumber! [laughs]
Brad Gullickson: Ok [laughing]. My parents believed this was the cause of my food-related phobia and as I was thinking about the idea with Lisa, I was thinking about Darwin Cooke’s graphic novel The Hunter. There is a 9-panel grid page in that book where Parker strangles a man to death, and when you get to the fifth panel, the central panel of that 9-panel grid, you see the man expire. The moment of impact that created my phobia is the middle panel of that Darwin Cooke 9-panel page. That was so exciting to me as an idea and I was like, “okay, we can do six more pages around us.”
Patrick, Derby Comics: That's such a fascinating inspiration to draw from. Was there anything you discovered or that surprised you when creating your story?
Brad Gullickson: Well, I was super anxious to write a comic with Lisa because we have attempted to write together in the past. Obviously, we collaborate every week with the podcast, which requires a lot of writing that you don't see or hear. And when we have tried to write fiction in the past, we have very different ideas of how that process goes. So when we finally had a deadline, we said, “Let's go on vacation and write this story together.” And we locked ourselves in a hotel room. We couldn't write in the same room, so we gave each other assignments like, “okay, you handle the captions, and I'll handle the visuals for this page.” I wasn't sure if that was going to work. We did 2 pages this way and then came back. Lisa went into the lobby restaurant of this hotel, and she did her writing, while I stayed in the hotel room.
Lisa Gullickson: We did Pomodoro Technique where you set a timer for 30 minutes and then you focus. Then when the timer goes off, you come back together.
Brad Gullickson: We did 2 pages that way, or maybe it was even just a page, and I was like, “hey, this worked. This is good!”
Lisa Gullickson: A lot of the things that are different about us are complementary if we let them be that way. When Brad writes, he writes out loud. He's an extroverted thinker. I'm a very introverted thinker. I like to do all of the work inside before I tell people what I'm thinking. So it worked out. Ultimately, what we thought would be a conflict was complementary.
Brad Gullickson: The biggest shock was we outlined it as 8 pages, but when we got done, we were like it's 7. I was a little sad to lose a page, but it only made sense.
Patrick, Derby Comics: My husband and I have a very similar dynamic [laughs]. The way you approached writing in this type of dynamic, how much did it differ from the way you approach the preparation for an episode of Comic Book Couples Counseling?
Lisa Gullickson: We actually do also divide and conquer when it comes to the podcast. There are the things that I cover and things that Brad covers. When we're interviewing, we both work very differently, but in a way where we can catch each other if the other person falters. I have all of my questions written out. I have some questions where I think the answers will go one way. I make a mind map and come in with an angle and then Brad likes to start with like a broad idea. He goes like, “what if we start with this broad idea and then just see where it goes?”
Brad Gullickson: Let's use our recent Scott Snyder conversation about Absolute Batman as an example. To me, I felt that the book was about a certain thing. I think Lisa and I aligned on the thematic elements.
Lisa Gullickson: Sure.
Brad Gullickson: Once I go like, “ok, well, this is what I want to explore in the conversation.” I will set up the first question for myself and then go wherever the conversation goes. And thankfully Lisa then has her laundry list of questions related to that theme that we can use at any moment and insert into the appropriate points within that conversation.
Lisa Gullickson: The longer we do [the podcast], the more slowly we just become each other. You know what I mean?
Brad Gullickson: I was a process geek. I am still a process geek. I still want to know what brushes people are using to draw things, but List doesn't care.
Lisa Gullickson: I cannot be less curious about it [laughing].
Patrick, Derby Comics: If you got a call tomorrow from the publisher of your dream giving you a 10-issue miniseries, what would you want to do?
Lisa Gullickson: Oh my God.
Brad Gullickson: I mean that would be amazing! Lisa and I have discussed the idea of writing a book where we apply a lot of the lessons that we've learned over the last five years.
Lisa Gullickson: Like a self-help book.
Brad Gullickson: How comic books can save your marriage. You know, something like that that is now copyrighted [laughs]. Don't steal it. But we would have to really think a little harder.
Lisa Gullickson: We've been kicking short story ideas back and forth.
Brad Gullickson: We have some horror stories and some crime stories that we would like to tell. We also have some romance stories we would like to tell. And we have some more personal memoir stories that we would like tfo tell.
Lisa Gullickson: Yes, but they're just simmering. We are people who are deadline focused. Like the second someone's like, “I need something from you by this time,” then all of a sudden that's where the inspiration is. It's kind of hard when it's nebulous. At any time you need a really good and complete idea. It could happen any time. It could also happen no time.
Brad Gullickson: When IDW [Publishing] announced Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Black, White, and Green, and various creators could pitch their out-of-continuity story, I told Lisa we have to have a Ninja Turtles story in our back pocket just in case we need to pitch immediately at a con [laughing].
Patrick, Derby Comics: Speaking of your list of projects, you’re both involved in an upcoming project called The Comics Courier. Can you share about the project?
Brad Gullickson: This one is super exciting because the state of comics journalism right now is bizarre. Is there any money there? It doesn't seem to be, but I think there is a lot of opportunity and Tiffany Babb is such an incredible journalist. She is an advocate for the medium and she came to us with this idea called The Comics Courier. It’s a newspaper, like an old school physical newspaper, full of comic journalism that you can hold. I think when you make something physical, you highlight the value of it. We believe that comics journalism has a value and we think that there is an audience out there for it.
Lisa Gullickson: There are so many talented people who are contributing to comic journalism, just fueled by their own passion.
Brad Gullickson: Yeah. Tiffany asked us [to contribute] a 500-word review of Hogbook and Lazer Eyes by Maria Bamford and Scott Marvel Cassidy which was one of our favorite comics of the year. It was fun to collaborate on those 500 words.
Lisa Gullickson: And it feels like a political statement. People think that ideas are free. And my answer to that is always, well, if you think that good ideas are free, try to have one.
Patrick, Derby Comics: Right. And try to do something with your idea without any money.
Lisa Gullickson: Yeah. There's no such thing as free time in a capitalist society. I wish that we lived in Star Trek times, and we could all just follow our passions but that is not the case [laughing].
Patrick, Derby Comics: Sadly not. Brad, you also touched on this on your recent panel at Baltimore Comic-Con, but I feel like the question of “is comics journalism dying?” comes up a lot in the comic industry conversations I follow. Sometimes it can feel like a catch-all term for any type of comic book writing. How would you define comic book journalism and what role do you think it plays in the industry?
Brad Gullickson: I'm always weird when it comes to defining anything because I'm a broad perspective person. I think that the first time someone referred to Lisa and I as comic journalists, I was like, “is that true?” I don't know. I think maybe, you know, comics journalism is anything that seriously takes a look at the medium of comics and contributes a thought about it.
Lisa Gullickson: I like to be a little bit more specific. I think it has to be something that involves actual research and interviews. I think that it takes real consideration and I think a curated expertise in comics. Brad has been reading comics practically his entire life. I've been reading comics for 20 years.
Brad Gullickson: I don't know if I necessarily believe that you need to have a curated expertise in comics to contribute to comics journalism. I think there's a lot of value to someone who is new to the mediums coming in and offering their perspective honestly.
Lisa Gullickson: Yeah, that's true too.
Brad Gullickson: I just feel like all you need to do is contribute another thought on top of a thing that's related to the medium of comics. The conversation around comics journalism is so sticky right now because no one can make a living at it. The Internet created a beautiful thing about it too it. It's what allows for Comic Book Couples Counseling. Two idiots named Brad and Lisa can go, “oh, I've got an idea. It's called Comic Book Couples Counseling. Let's put it out into the world for free.” And that's what we've done. You could support our Patreon. That would be wonderful [laughs]. Please do. We need help!
We've been very lucky to have sponsorships, but we went to an ad-based system and then the ad-based system imploded. So the [comics journalism] sites that were once strong are no longer strong and are still relying on an ad-based system. When you rely on an ad-based system, you need to chase clicks, which means you must chase what is ever the most popular thing. The thing that is the most usually engaging to get you to click.
Lisa Gullickson: Also, we have to compete with AI and things like that, that are doing things for free because they are not people. I'm talking about how comics journalism contributes to the culture. I think that comic book journalism does keep the conversation going. I think that people have come to trust the recommendations and the criticism of certain individuals. I think people are looking for things like interviews. They're looking for conversation and that kind of thing. The comic book sphere has always been fueled by conversation. It’s why there has always been back pages with letters. There has always been a relationship between the creators and the readers and each other.
This goes for all journalism. It would be silly to not mention that every journalist is suffering. Literally every single one.
Brad Gullickson: And we have now this blanket thing of, like the media is malleable. It has devalued everything. Things were already being devalued, and now mainstream audiences don’t believe in the concept of the media, because they don't believe in truth anymore. Will comics journalism ever return to a state of viability? I don't know. I think all art right now is about finding your audience. And us as the audience too are finding the things that we love and then financially supporting those things. Champion them. Financially supporting them.
Patrick, Derby Comics: It's also tough for comics journalism to be solvent when the industry itself is facing so many financial pressures.
Lisa Gullickson: Right, that too.
Brad Gullickson: I could be very pessimistic about this subject, or I could be very optimistic about this subject. I think the optimistic side is that the community of comics honestly hasn't been as strong as it really is now. Are any of us making money by either reading or making or talking about comics? No, not really. But there was a moment when I felt so isolated because in my real world, I did not have comics lovers in my life. But then I went online, and I found those comics lovers. Then I go to the community of comic book conventions, and I find those comics lovers. We talk so often about how small the medium and the love around the medium is. But actually, it's pretty damn large and we need to celebrate the people that are here.
Lisa Gullickson: Yeah and it's filled with all kinds of people and we're all excited to talk about what we love. I think the best choice that we made when we started Comic Book Couples Counseling is to stay positive and to stay optimistic. I think that it has helped us emotionally and spiritually to go, “we're here to share the love.” But also ,I think that we've created a safe space where people can talk about their love of comics, where they know that they're not going to have to defend their opinions or come with the spice. The only spices we use are nice spice [laughing].
Patrick, Derby Comics: Your positivity shows in your work and it was definitely an inspiration for me personally on my own journey through this industry. On that topic, what advice would you give to others who are trying to cover the comic book industry the way you two are?
Lisa Gullickson: I would say just be yourself.
Brad Gullickson: It's dating. Don't perform.
Lisa Gullickson: You want to be personality forward. Do not think about what you think other people will want to hear because those podcasts, those articles, those reviews are already being written. Say what you want to hear, write what you want to read, and odds are you'll find like-minded people.
Brad Gullickson: I would also say don't get caught up in the numbers game. You create a podcast or you create a website and all you do initially is spend your time looking at how few people are engaging with your thing, right? But there are some people engaging. I think it's nearly impossible to create something that gets 0 engagement. You know, I think back again to In The Mouth Of Dorkness. We did that from 2011 until the pandemic. We didn't have a very big audience, but we had a little audience. I loved talking movies, and we loved talking comics so much, whether there was a big audience or a small audience out there. We won't be doing it the moment it's no longer fun. The moment it’ss impacting you in any kind of negative way, or it's contributing to sad feelings, then you stop. But as long as you're loving the thing, just do the thing.
Lisa Gullickson: Consider that you're creating a body of work. Know that when you’re podcasting to no one or writing blogs or writing articles for no one. Our first episode was klunky. We had not found our voice yet. We had been used to a looser format, so it's very conversational. It's not very polished, but it’s where people go. They check out an episode, an interview here or there, and then – boom - they're listening to that Scott and Jean episode. So consider that you're creating a body of work and then when you are starting to get those [engagement] numbers, and you are starting to get opportunities, you have a stock of already created things that that people can enthusiastically bound towards. And people still even listen to our first episodes. So it's really good people enjoy those episodes. But to them, I say, “you're doing the Lord's work. Thank you so much [laughing].”
Patrick, Derby Comics: Ok, I'm going to start wrapping up but this is a question that I try to ask every creator that I interview, but I'm going to change it up slightly. You two have asked a lot of questions to others in your time hosting podcasts, but I’d love to know what is an interview question that you have always wanted to be asked yourselves?
Lisa Gullickson: Oh!
Brad Gullickson: Oh gosh, I have never really thought about that before. I'm going to change it up just a little bit. It speaks to me what we do at Comic Book Couples Counseling that we hope is a little bit different from others. [I enjoy] when I'm listening to an interview and they're not asking the same old questions.
Lisa Gullickson: Anything that you could Google?
Brad Gullickson: Yeah, anything that you could Google. I don't want hear that. But I want to hear what stories mean for people. I was just listening to someone at a Film Festival who was saying that creative expression is a human right. I think we often take it for granted and I want people to talk about why we need to creatively express. Why is art vital? I want to have these conversations because right now books are being banned left and right in this country. They’re being taken out of school libraries because we're really afraid of the ideas that [books] contain. Why is that? Why are we scared of ideas? Why do we need to make ideas?
Lisa Gullickson: One question that I love is the “what?” What about you? What about what you do fills you with the most gratitude? Sometimes, when you get into the nitty gritty about what's hard or what's complicated or what's challenging about what you do, it can begin to sound like a tremendous burden to be creative or put your stuff out there. I do think it's important to talk about how things are hard. Everybody relates to things being hard. But when I think about when we're going into a convention and we meet someone that we've only met online or we have a beautiful moment like this where we’re like, hey, we've seen Patrick online. Now we're having a face-to-face, even though it's over a video conference. But we're having this really personal and beautiful moment. This fills me with tremendous gratitude.
Brad Gullickson: I also want people just to get deep with their stories. When we first started doing a lot of interviews on Comic Book Couples Counseling, we would often hear from the creators like, “you know, this Batman comic is also just like fun. It's about punching and stuff.” But as Comic Book Couples Counseling has progressed, we have less and less push back to going deeper. People now know when they come on, we're going to get deep when we talk. If we’re talking about Batman, we're going to talk trauma when we talk. We're going to talk capitalism and the toxic impulses of Bruce Wayne.
Lisa Gullickson: When we talk about Spawn, we're going to encourage Todd McFarland to talk about his atheism and how that has always been part of Spawn. That kind of stuff makes us really excited.
Brad Gullickson: But that's what I want more of. Let's take these silly, funny books very seriously. Comics is just a medium where they can tell every kind of story. Let's talk about every kind of story and why they need to be comics and what happens when you make them a comic and what it does to your insides.
Lisa Gullickson: I love that!
Patrick, Derby Comics: Me too! All right. Final question. Lisa, for the Harvey Awards, can we expect to see your own crocheted dress?
Lisa Gullickson: Dude, I want to so badly [laughs]! I have been thinking maybe I need like a little crochet shrug or something. My current obsession is crochet. I literally cannot quit, but like also because I love it so much.
Brad Gullickson: I'll be wearing a sport coat [laughing].
Patrick, Derby Comics: Well, I can’t wait to see both of your outfits! Thank you again for taking the time to chat with me and I can’t wait to see all the awesome work you have in the future for us!
